Budget estimates - hot air from Minister on Mt Warning and NP handovers
NSW budget estimates are currently on. Hon John Ruddick, Libertarian Party MLC, has asked some searching questions of Minister Penny Sharpe in relation to Mt Warning and handover of NSW National Parks to aboriginal groups.
Relevant Hansard below - can be access via this LINK (will open Hansard PDF file).
On both issues no firm answers from the Minister to any questions and no commitment to reopen the Mt Warning summit to the public. Mt Warning has been closed for nearly 5 years - half a decade of intransigence on the part of both the previous Liberal Government and current Labor government that still has the mountain and lives of the surrounding community in limbo.
Clear message is that a vote for the Libertarians, and their greater success, is the only way this will reach a satisfactory conclusion.
Thankyou John Ruddick MLC for your continued probing of irrational government decision making.
Let's go to the record....
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
Turning to another area, on 22 October 2021 the National Parks and
Wildlife Service entered into a part 4A agreement with local Aboriginal land
councils for a nature reserve of 589 hectares off Thunderbolts Way, west of
Armidale. It's now called the Bulagaranda Aboriginal Area. I understand from
the lease agreement that the Government has agreed to the following payments:
an annual rent of $20,000, an annual payment of operational funds of $65,000
and an annual payment of $70,000 for community development funds. In total,
$150,000 per year is being given from taxpayers to this Aboriginal land
council. The department remains responsible for all outgoings, obligations and
costs under associated land management practices, along with the costs
associated with public liability and other things. According to the lease,
there is to be no change in recurrent spending on the reserve, but this is
clearly not the case. Can you or the department provide a sum total of all
payments and departmental costs associated with the formation and enactment of
the lease agreement and payments made since 22 October 2021, including costs of
outgoing and payments made under the land management status?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
I'm happy to provide that information to the Committee. Clearly, it
happened before this current Government was elected. The point I make around
part 4As is that we have them across the State. They're part of a range of
different models that we have, working with Aboriginal communities and
traditional owners on national parks. Part 4A is well known and has been
running for many decades as a way in which there is an Aboriginal-owned park
that is leased back to the State, which works in partnership with the National
Parks and Wildlife Service. I've been very lucky to go to a couple of these.
One of the ones I've been to is Mutawintji, which is in Far West New South
Wales. It's a fantastic national park. If anyone ever gets out there, there are
some incredible things to see there. It's very well maintained and run by the
traditional owners in partnership with Parks. I think it's a really successful
model. We've got a breakdown of those. I'm happy to get those figures for you,
Mr Ruddick.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
Prior to the agreement, I understand costs for managing the park came
from National Parks and Wildlife recurrent funds. Can the department provide
annual recurrent spending for management of Bulagaranda Aboriginal Area for the
five years prior to the lease agreement being signed?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
Sure, I'm sure we can find that. It might take us a little while. It's
going back a while but, yes, no problem.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
I'd like to use my last few minutes to talk about Mount Warning, where
we've been before, Minister. Your office helped us get some documents. We were
planning on doing an SO 52 but your department was cooperative and gave us some
of the documents that we were after. The Wollumbin Consultative Group minutes
show that in 2016 and 2018, National Parks and Wildlife and the Wollumbin Consultative
Group were pursuing a permit and fee system to manage public access to the
summit. To quote from the minutes from December 2016, "Massive increase in
people climbing the mountain; 465 people a day is not sustainable". The
Wollumbin Consultative Group wanted to limit it to 250 a day by introducing a
fee of $20 to $25. That was endorsed by the Wollumbin Consultative Group. In
July 2018 committee members still desired a permit system. This is all from the
documents that your office helped us acquire.
Can the Minister please explain why this compromised approach to public
access to the summit was not pursued? The people up there were saying,
"Let's charge a fee. Too many people are climbing it. It is doing some
damage. If we put in a fee, there will be less." According to those
documents that we have from six, seven or eight years ago, that seemed to be
the consensus of the people on the ground up there. We seem to have lost that
idea of charging a fee. What's your view on that?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
Again, I can't comment too much about what happened under the previous
Government or previous arrangements. What I can say is I that have met with the
Wollumbin Consultative Group, as I have met with many people in relation to the
future of access to the summit. That work is ongoing. It's not straightforward.
I take at face value that you've seen the documents; I haven't seen them. I
know there has been a variety of discussions and views within the Wollumbin
Consultative Group over time, and that changed. When I became the Minister, I
went and met with them. I think there was a desire to work out what was
actually going on. There is a preference for the summit to remain closed and to
think about future access a long way into the future, without wanting to put
words in people's mouths because I haven't met with them for a little
while. It's something that we continue
to work through. In 2016 and 2018, I think I was the shadow Minister for Family
and Community Services then, so it was quite a while ago. I'm not across the
detail at the time, but we're happy to give you the information that you want.
The point that I would make is I have met with many people up on the North
Coast. There is a variety of views; we're still working through those. There
are still the safety aspects, which are important. It's a very, very steep
place. We don't want people going up there where it's unsafe, and so we'd need
to work out how that was going to operate in the future. Those discussions
continue.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
We have a document where you are quoted as saying to the Wollumbin
Consultative Group on 22 February last year, "I would like to explore if
there are opportunities for joint management around treaty arrangements."
What did you mean by "treaty arrangements", and is the Government
proposing some type of treaty with the Wollumbin Consultative Group?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
No. I haven't seen those minutes. I'm not certain that they're
necessarily a direct reflection of what I may have said, but I'm happy to
explain to you the conversation that I was having, which is that you'd be aware
that the New South Wales Government has set up a group of people who are
beginning the conversations around treaty making in New South Wales. That
doesn't mean that a range of other things that have been longstanding just sort
of fall away. The discussion around
joint management and, as I indicated previously, the various different ways in
which National Parks works with Aboriginal and traditional owners across the
parks network is part of that. If I was reflecting on that, I was probably
talking about the fact that the Government was setting up a treaty process. In
some ways, my general view would be that some of the part 4A and other
arrangements are not dissimilar to small treaties anyway because they're
actually in agreement about how the national parks and country are being cared
for jointly.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
Still on Mount Warning—in a meeting attended by yourself on 22 February
last year, a member of the Wollumbin Consultative Group is quoted as saying,
"Let's start the process of entering into a part 4A leaseback
arrangement." Is arranging this part 4A leaseback arrangement the reason
for the continued temporary closure of the summit track?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
No.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
Is the Minister planning on handing over ownership and control of Mount
Warning National Park to the Wollumbin Consultative Group under a part 4A
agreement?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
The short answer is no, but it's more nuanced than that. Because, as I
said, the whole conversation about the management of the parks, what form joint
management takes—it doesn't necessarily need to be part 4A and there are
differing views within the community in relation to that. Really, I just need
to go back to where I'm at, which is that we've extended the ban until the end
of the year, as you would be aware. I'm hoping that we can work through and
actually provide a pathway for what happens in the future before then. But this
is not straightforward and we continue to work with people in relation to that.
There are a whole lot of people that have got a whole lot of views. Many of
them don't agree with each other.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
When we do get to the end of this process and we have a long-term
arrangement, are you confident that the public is going to be able to access
the national park?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
In terms of accessing the national park, yes. In terms of where and when
and how, that's a different question, and the way in which the summit is able
to be accessed is still an ongoing discussion.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
Minutes of the meeting show an acknowledgement by National Parks and
Wildlife Service of the economic importance of the summit climb to local
businesses. Given National Parks' temporary closure of the summit route will be
five years on 30 March this year—unhappy anniversary—and the economic damage of
the closure is estimated by some to be about $75 million to local businesses,
does the Government have any plans to compensate businesses for lost income
arising from the Government's decision?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
No, we don't have plans to do compensation, but we do have plans to try
to work this out for the future.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
Do you acknowledge that there have been lots of businesses that have
been acutely negatively affected by the Government's decision to stop
accessing—
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
I know that there have been some businesses that have had a big impact,
but also there have been other impacts that have occurred—COVID and roadworks
that have locked off access in relation to that. There has been some really
positive news in terms of what the Government has done around driving other
tourism opportunities on the North Coast as well. The rail trail is a roaring
success, the numbers of people that are using that rail trail appearing to be
on par with some of the climbing that used to occur. It's a dynamic situation.
Yes, I know some people have been severely affected. I wouldn't say it has just
been because of the closure of the summit. There are a lot of other
intersecting issues that have also impacted that area.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
I think the Northern Rivers area is certainly back on its feet after
COVID, but the towns of Uki and Murwillumbah definitely—
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
Those ones that are very close, of course there's been impact, yes.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
Former environment Minister James Griffin announced the development of a
new model for Aboriginal joint management of New South Wales national parks on
3 July 2022. A new Aboriginal Joint Management Unit was established by the NSW
National Parks and Wildlife Service to oversee the development of the proposed
new model. Stage one consultations are complete, and National Parks is now
moving to stage two. Stages one and two are limited to Aboriginal groups,
whereas the general public may only get involved at stage three, when the model
is complete or at least near complete. Am I right to fear that this opportunity
to get involved by non-Aboriginal groups will not be communicated widely?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
Sorry, that was a very long question, but my answer to that is no.
National parks are some of the most precious assets that this State has. We
give them the highest level of land protection for that very reason. We're
getting close to 10 per cent of our State being a protected area through a
national park or the various reserve systems. It's something that New South
Wales should be very proud of. The other part of that, which is intrinsic to that,
is the Aboriginal cultural heritage that also sits within and on all of those
parks. There has been decades-long work with Aboriginal communities,
traditional owners. I'm very proud that National Parks and Wildlife Service has
the highest number of Aboriginal people working in it, at about 14 per cent.
These are deep relationships with the community that value the incredible
literally 60,000 years worth of heritage within those parks. That's a very long
way of saying that we're always looking for ways for—and the previous
Government was committed to—joint ownership and management. As I've said to
you, that occurs in a range of different ways. Sometimes there are MOUs;
sometimes there are Aboriginal places; sometimes there's part 4A. That's the
conversation that we're having with Aboriginal communities all around the
State—around how we can work with them and how we can protect that heritage,
but also how do we share that heritage with the entire community. It's a very
long way of saying, yes, of course the broader community has a conversation
about that, but we also are doing some work. The sad reality is that we haven't
even done a lot of the work that traditional owners are wanting to do now to
even map some of the incredible sites that we have. We're finding sites that
have been there for tens of thousands of years that no-one has recognised that
we are looking at protecting. We've just acquired a property—Broughton Vale,
west of Broken Hill—that has a very important Aboriginal place on it that we
recognise and want to value. In terms of
whether everyone can access those all the time, there's different management in
different places. Some are sensitive; that's not unusual. We have a range of
other items and areas. People can't and go visit the Wollemi pine, for example,
in the national parks, but it doesn't mean it's not valued. That's a very long
way of answering your question, Mr Ruddick, but, really, national parks are an
asset for all of us. Aboriginal communities have a very special place within
that in terms of how they manage that and the fact that it was originally
Aboriginal land. We're working through the way in which that can operate.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
You would acknowledge that there are a large number of Australians who
do not have an Aboriginal ancestor but have a deep natural love of national
parks.
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
Sure.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
Our Chair has spent a lot of time in national parks.
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
And myself, of course—all of us. Everyone should love national parks. As
I said, they're our most precious asset. Someone has just given me a note which
is very helpful. Stage one consultation—so this would've happened before I was
the Minister—actually had broader groups. It wasn't just with Aboriginal
communities. I can confirm that.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
The facilitators of the consultation are the Thirriwirri, and the report
I refer to is the Regional Aboriginal Workshop Aboriginal Community Engagement
Report. The report states: Participants also identified opportunities to
generate economic benefits to communities from royalties and fees derived from
third parties accessing parks for commercial purposes. … People called for
equal or majority Aboriginal representation on any joint management governing
body, with a view also put forward that the governing body should consist of
Aboriginal people only. Most concerningly, it also notes: … many raised a
desire to not only own the parks outright, but to be able to transition from
joint-management to full-community management, even though this is not within
the scope of the NSW Government proposal to establish a new joint-management
model. Minister, do you support majority Aboriginal representation on any joint
management governing body?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
We already have that in the case of the part 4As, which are by far
Aboriginal majority, with some community members on them. So that model is
already in existence. When was that report done? Was that done by the previous
Government or is that a new one?
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK: I don't have the date here, but I will get that to you. (ed its a recent report - published 18 Dec 2023 see https://www2.environment.nsw.gov.au/publications/regional-aboriginal-workshop-aboriginal-community-engagement-report)
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
I think it's an older one. Regardless, it doesn't surprise me at all
that consultation with Aboriginal people—they have strong views around the way
in which national parks operate, the opportunities there are for caring for
country, for economic empowerment and for working through that land management.
As I said, in national parks in New South Wales, 14 per cent of our staff are
Aboriginal people. It's a place that Aboriginal people, I hope and I know, like
to work. Also, it gives a huge amount of opportunity for Aboriginal businesses
to do work on country, sharing cultural heritage and the specialness of the
places. It's a great strength.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
Am I right to be fearful that we could be on track in the next 15 to 20
years to have every national park in New South Wales handed over to Aboriginal
ownership under these—
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
No.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
That's not the case?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
No. As I said to you, there are different arrangements in different
places that we need to work through. Not all Aboriginal people are the same.
Not all Aboriginal people, in relation to traditional owners, have the same
views around the ways that these are managed. The fact that we give this
highest level of protection to national parks means that they're an asset that
we all need to look after. I'm not quite sure what your concerns are, other
than—
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
I'm worried that under these part 4A agreements, we give the ownership
of the national park to a local land council and then we immediately enter into
a lease where the National Parks and Wildlife Service can continue to—
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
Yes.
The Hon. JOHN RUDDICK:
But that lease goes for 30 years. What happens after 30 years if the
land council says they don't want to re-enter into a lease?
The Hon. PENNY SHARPE:
It's renegotiated, so that's what we do. That's the whole idea. My
understanding is that hasn't—they take a variety of forms, and this is what we
do. This is a partnership approach with Aboriginal people that we take very
seriously that has led to great strengths. I again encourage you to go out to
Mutawintji or to other parks to really—Mount Grenfell Historic Site, I was very
privileged to go and have a look at last year. When you see what the
traditional owners are able to do on park with their communities, but also the
education piece in the broader community, it is a very special thing that we're
able to do that very few nations on earth are able to do, and I'm very proud of
it.
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